While I respect your focus on wheelguns (I use them myself.), there is a parallel in the semi-auto world that saw a slightly better outcome. The 10mm Auto. Its making a comeback.
For LE use, the midbores (9mm) are better for general use; the balance between controllability, gun size and terminal performance is optimized.
Add another millimeter of bore diameter and raise MAP to 35-40K PSI and all 3 areas begin to have serious compromises. Ones hunters can deal with, but LEO agencies find challenging to manage.
The best workaround regarding largebores for an autopistol cartridge was introduced in 1905, the 45 ACP.
While I've never owned a .41 mag, the few people I know who have one love it.
In a similar concept, back when I owned several .44 magnums and shot them a lot, my handloads were all basically reduced power .44 special loads in a magnum case. Velocities around 1000 to 1100 fps were the magic zone where shooting was pleasant. So I guess in a sense, what handloaders did with the .41 I was already doing with the .44. And given that the .44 was actually a .429, I'm not sure there's any appreciable difference.
As for Bill Jordan's proposed ballistics, he basically just re-envisioned the 44-40 cartridge. He could have just had a new revolver rechambered in the 44-40 and called it a day.
The agencies that adopted it saw drops in qualification scores and ditched it with that as one of the reasons. Of course the scores went down as the Officers had been shooting K-Frame Guns with target wadcutters. The .41 had to use the duty load as there was nothing else available. I've always maintained if the Departments had been qualifying with .357 magnum ammo in their K-Frames the scores would have been worse than the .41!
Great article. I have a 6" Model 57 and a 4" Model 657, absolutely love them. A 210 gr bullet with 21.9 gr of H110 behind it is good medicine. Sadly, there is no pistol hunting allowed in Canada, or I'd try it for deer.
Thank you. I actually live just off Lake Superior near Sault Ste Marie and can see Canada from the end of my driveway. I owned a small gun shop in the 2000’s and would regularly sell to Canadian customers. However, I would have to deliver the firearms to customs and the customer would have to deal with the mountain of paperwork afterwards. Cheers!
I'm not a shooter, but the history of firearms development fascinates me. It's such an excellent example of making minor engineering changes in search of an optimal solution, which often run afoul of unsuspected realities. Those lurking realities might be technical, economic, or inscrutable human preferences. Calls to mind navigating the labyrinth of a river delta; treacherous, confusing, and ever-shifting.
The fact that a handgun designed in 1909-1911 is still the basic design of choice for high end competition guns is crazy when you think about it. All the 2011 has are a double stack design and 1 or 2 different parts. We throw a compensation and red dot on but the gun is essentially unchanged in over 100 years. I’ve never even shot a Glock, nor do I want to. My SIG P320 is meh. Though I’m more a revolver shooter but one can never shoot too many guns.
Just wanted to make something new, I guess, since Jordan's requirements were met by the 44 special. Current 44 special loads exceed those ballistics. To be fair, gunmakers use caliber creation as marketing to sell units. The 1960s probably saw more calibers created than any other decade.
Excellent points! Both the .44 Special and .45 Colt were capable of meeting Jordan’s requirements of a 200-grain bullet at 900-1000 fps even back then. That said, I think the switch to autoloaders was inevitable. Still, wheelguns are quite popular and the .38/.357 still seems to rule the roost.
Yes the requirements could have been met by the .44 Special or .45 Colt. But the Ammo Companies of the day refused to give us commercial loads. All Elmer ever really wanted was a commercial loading of his hot .44 Special load. He tried for decades to get that done and it took decades after the advent of the .44 Magnum before we ever got those type of loads from small ammo companies.
While I respect your focus on wheelguns (I use them myself.), there is a parallel in the semi-auto world that saw a slightly better outcome. The 10mm Auto. Its making a comeback.
For LE use, the midbores (9mm) are better for general use; the balance between controllability, gun size and terminal performance is optimized.
Add another millimeter of bore diameter and raise MAP to 35-40K PSI and all 3 areas begin to have serious compromises. Ones hunters can deal with, but LEO agencies find challenging to manage.
The best workaround regarding largebores for an autopistol cartridge was introduced in 1905, the 45 ACP.
the 45 ACP is what God uses. though he has moved to +P
While I've never owned a .41 mag, the few people I know who have one love it.
In a similar concept, back when I owned several .44 magnums and shot them a lot, my handloads were all basically reduced power .44 special loads in a magnum case. Velocities around 1000 to 1100 fps were the magic zone where shooting was pleasant. So I guess in a sense, what handloaders did with the .41 I was already doing with the .44. And given that the .44 was actually a .429, I'm not sure there's any appreciable difference.
As for Bill Jordan's proposed ballistics, he basically just re-envisioned the 44-40 cartridge. He could have just had a new revolver rechambered in the 44-40 and called it a day.
The agencies that adopted it saw drops in qualification scores and ditched it with that as one of the reasons. Of course the scores went down as the Officers had been shooting K-Frame Guns with target wadcutters. The .41 had to use the duty load as there was nothing else available. I've always maintained if the Departments had been qualifying with .357 magnum ammo in their K-Frames the scores would have been worse than the .41!
Great article. I have a 6" Model 57 and a 4" Model 657, absolutely love them. A 210 gr bullet with 21.9 gr of H110 behind it is good medicine. Sadly, there is no pistol hunting allowed in Canada, or I'd try it for deer.
Thank you. I actually live just off Lake Superior near Sault Ste Marie and can see Canada from the end of my driveway. I owned a small gun shop in the 2000’s and would regularly sell to Canadian customers. However, I would have to deliver the firearms to customs and the customer would have to deal with the mountain of paperwork afterwards. Cheers!
Great article! Well written, and a great cartridge.
Thank you, Sir.
I'm not a shooter, but the history of firearms development fascinates me. It's such an excellent example of making minor engineering changes in search of an optimal solution, which often run afoul of unsuspected realities. Those lurking realities might be technical, economic, or inscrutable human preferences. Calls to mind navigating the labyrinth of a river delta; treacherous, confusing, and ever-shifting.
The fact that a handgun designed in 1909-1911 is still the basic design of choice for high end competition guns is crazy when you think about it. All the 2011 has are a double stack design and 1 or 2 different parts. We throw a compensation and red dot on but the gun is essentially unchanged in over 100 years. I’ve never even shot a Glock, nor do I want to. My SIG P320 is meh. Though I’m more a revolver shooter but one can never shoot too many guns.
Just wanted to make something new, I guess, since Jordan's requirements were met by the 44 special. Current 44 special loads exceed those ballistics. To be fair, gunmakers use caliber creation as marketing to sell units. The 1960s probably saw more calibers created than any other decade.
Excellent points! Both the .44 Special and .45 Colt were capable of meeting Jordan’s requirements of a 200-grain bullet at 900-1000 fps even back then. That said, I think the switch to autoloaders was inevitable. Still, wheelguns are quite popular and the .38/.357 still seems to rule the roost.
My favorite .41 Magnum is my S&W 657 Mountain Gun. The “pencil” barrel saves some weight, and it’s been very accurate over the years.
Yes the requirements could have been met by the .44 Special or .45 Colt. But the Ammo Companies of the day refused to give us commercial loads. All Elmer ever really wanted was a commercial loading of his hot .44 Special load. He tried for decades to get that done and it took decades after the advent of the .44 Magnum before we ever got those type of loads from small ammo companies.